Warning Vs. Ban

[ThomasKirkman]

 

I see a major problem with punishments within the Report Player area. There is no consistency from one admin to another, or for that matter even one admin from one case to the other.

http://www.forum.convoytrucking.net/index.php/topic,15133.0.html

Punishment: has been banned 3 days ramming with intent

http://www.forum.convoytrucking.net/index.php/topic,15136.0.html

Punishment: Warning issued to Bounce: ramming

It is the same exact violation. The only difference is one vehicle flipped. I have seen this time and again. This happened last night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Hd9v64v6XXI

I was pulling over BonDs to weigh him and issue a ticket, when DriftingMaster intentionally swerved into me and rammed my vehicle from behind destroying it and almost killing me. You can see we were pulled to the side of the road and that he intentionally turned into my vehicle.

HERE is the outcome of this violation:  Warning issued to DriftingMaster: ramming


Rule two of the Server Rules states, "Do not ram or attempt to steal other players' vehicles . . . " And if a person consciously decides to violate that well known rule, at the bottom it states clearly that, "Anyone breaking the above rules may be subject to a temporary or permanent ban."

Accidents happen due to lag issues etc. But when a player makes a conscious decision and deliberate attempt to ram into another player, action needs to be taken not only to punish the offender, but also to send a message to all other players that this is un-acceptable. There are many examples of the slap on the wrist "Warning issued" listed for Intentional Ramming. And as everyone can see, nobody takes that punishment seriously. This is serious.

This is a game, yes. But it is a game for every ones enjoyment. Rules were put in place with punishments for different violations and it has been my experience the banning one player and warning another is getting out of hand. If this type of play is to be discouraged, real consistent punishment needs to be enforced by ALL admins.
ThomasKirkman

Additionally:  I see on another post that the issue at hand isn't IF the player violated the Server Rules by insulting another player, but how OFTEN he insulted him.

[$nake]

im totally agree with mr Kirkman, but every1 of our admins have other attitude to punishment,
one will ban for 3 days when another would warn only for this same, its normal hows this world is wide..

[ThomasKirkman]

But in the three examples I listed above, that just happened by the way, you have an admin that bans a player for ramming with intent, and warns on the other two, when their intent is just as plain.  One player in a dumper just like s0zzie rams my cruiser from behind.  I wasn't hidden.  He knew I was there.  He made a conscious decision to ram into my vehicle.  And he gets warned.  Same exact vehicle used by the offender.  Same class of victim driving a marked police car.  But the admin issues different punishment.  In the next one, a bus drives onto the shoulder to ram a police officer.  Again, the driver made a conscious decision to violate the rules to run into a police officer and all he gets is a warning, but on this occasion, the officers' vehicle is destroyed as in the first example and the officer is almost killed.  Still the admin gives that violator nothing but a slap on the wrist.  (at this point I just want to rage about what crap this is, so I will take a short walk)    ThomasKirkman

[mrtrlt]

I think it may also depend on how many bans or warnings they have had previously.

s0zzie may have rammed before. This time round, resulting in a ban

In Bounce's case, this may be a first time.

[Joshy]

s0zzie. = rammed numerous times;
Bounce = rammed once;
DriftingMaster = rammed once.

Ramming:
Intentional: warning.
In extreme cases or if player is unregistered or a Trucker Wannabe: ban.

The admins judgement on what is 'extreme' is up to them, as long as it's suitable. It's near impossible to apply the same punishments to every report, due to the fact that every report is different and admin judgement on violations is different. So what if every admin had all the same judgement, the report will be different anyway so that idea would go down the drain.

[ThomasKirkman]

Thanks for explaining Joshy. I understand now.
I was under the impression by reading the server rules, that if I knowingly and blatantly violated any of the server rules, that I would have to face the consequences of my actions. And these consequences would normally consist of a ban ranging in severity from three days or more in multiple offense cases.
Now I understand that it isn't IF I violate these rules I will be punished, but how often I violate the rules. And then punishment for the violation can vary depending on who is judging that violation at the time. And I also see and understand that new players that might not know all the rules are in more jeopardy of a ban than older players that know for sure what the server rules are.

WOW, eye opener for sure.
ThomasKirkman   

[zacco]

like joshy did say.

the first report he rammed multi times thats why 3 day ban

the other 2 is it only 1 ram so it is a warn.

and also if the player ramming and got warned for it many times before he get a ban.

i hope you understand now why some get a ban and some a warn.

i know it can look strange sometime but we also see what the player have done before.


zacco

[Nagy_Sanyi]

This punishment system is a big joke.Nobody and i mean nobody takes seriously these warnings.But this server must support trolls + noobs otherwise it would not exist

s0zzie. = rammed numerous times;
Bounce = rammed once;
DriftingMaster = rammed once.

Ramming:
Intentional: warning.
In extreme cases or if player is unregistered or a Trucker Wannabe: ban.

The admins judgement on what is 'extreme' is up to them, as long as it's suitable. It's near impossible to apply the same punishments to every report, due to the fact that every report is different and admin judgement on violations is different. So what if every admin had all the same judgement, the report will be different anyway so that idea would go down the drain.

How you know Bounce rammed only once?Maybe he rams newbies for fun or other players who dont report people.He rammed Thomas because he thought he would not report him.It does not matter if he rammed once or multiple times he still broke this rule.We really must wait till he does an extreme ramming?Why dont admins ban him so he could learn from this lesson sooner

[ThomasKirkman]

 
I have thought a lot about why this whole thing has been eating at me and what I have come up with it this.

Most people and I do not mean ALL people, report incidents of ramming, insulting etc. in an attempt to glean some form of justice for what they generally view as a personal, vindictive, attack upon themselves during the course of their game play. They look to the admins to hand down just and fair punishments relating to their case alone based on the evidence they provide, and then handing down judgment based upon the currently publicized rules. But what they don't understand is that there seems to be a second standard by which offenders are judged. And it is NOT a case by case evaluation. Both cases before us show an offender who made a premeditated attack on another player, destroying that player's vehicle. Both offenses are a clear violation of the publicized server rules. And both offenders, who are not new players, were aware that their actions were in clear violation of those rules. But due to one offender's previous actions, he received a stiffer penalty.

From the evidence provided, both incidents display only one impact resulting in the destruction of the reporting players' vehicle. However the offending players' intent in both cases was the same. And his intent was to grief the victim. But justice turned a blind eye to one due to factors totally unrelated to his case.

I hope you can see that on the surface this seems unfair. The "Warning" system of punishment seems to be VERY ineffective when it comes to certain offenses. The purpose of the punishment is to deter the offenders from repeating their offense. For the average person who has a moment of "stupidity" and receives a warning or a ban, that, in most cases, is enough to educate him and get him to change his behavior. Players are allowed three warnings a month if I am correct. So a person can continue to violate the rules with no noticeable punishments, as long as he hasn't reached his three warning limit. And it must be noted that this does not take into account those actions for which he was NOT reported or caught.  So players can continue ram and insult players as long as they haven't received those warnings.

But warnings should be for victimless offenses. Such as parking on the street, advertising in the chat channel, non-English in main chat etc. Not when one person deliberately attacks another. Where you have a victim and ample evidence is provided, equal justice should be enforced based on each individual case and on the intent with which the violation occurred. 

That is what I was trying to bring forth in this topic.

ThomasKirkman   

[zacco]

ok so if i get you  right Tomas and nagy you both want to have a harder system for ramming, insulting and so on.

no warn only ban did i understand you correct .

i try to explain how we work today with the reports.

1 we see it and read what it is about ramming/insult/blocking and so on.
2 we starting to see the proof given by the player screen shots, log or any proof given.
after we have see the proof given we take action to it and now is it up to the player what did he do and how many times did he do it ramming, insulting. then we warn or ban the player.

if the player have got banned for 3 days ramming with intent he going to get 7 days next time and after that 14 days

the problem is that you and nagy cant see the admin panel so you cant see the actions from the players and what they did do before thats why it can look like we judge different in same kind of report.
if the player reporting give really good proof we dont need to think if it is internal or only a accidental ram.

if you see your first post the first report the player got banned for 3 days reason internal ramming new or old player do not matter for us he did ram the car multi times

but we going to take this with us and see what we can do to get harder on the warn or ban.

zacco

[Deff]

a long post

lol i never read your posts. They are so long.
You should just say important points rather than going into details

[ThomasKirkman]

Those details frequently kept me from having to appear in court.  The offenders had no choice but to plead guilty.  It is how I write, sorry.  if the topic interests you, then there is information you might be interested in.

ThomasKirkman

[mick88]

There is a lot of factors that come into play, like previous offences, reports etc.
Just don't break any rules and you won't have to worry about it.

[ThomasKirkman]

I agree with you mick.  But with a majority of the violations, being personal in nature, it seems the current system of penalties are not effective in changing players actions and behaviors.  Every day the majority of the Player Reports being filed are player on player attacks.  And the violating players in most cases are experienced players and are well aware of the server rules.
Players have a callus view regarding ramming and insults upon other players because they either don't care or have nothing to fear in the form of punishment from being reported.

ThomasKirkman 

[Nagy_Sanyi]

Zacco the problem is that players who ram on purpose can get banned very hardly due to lack of proofs.There are players who ram others on purpose,and finally when they get caught(even after months) they only get a warning because its the first time admins saw them ramming.

Just an example: I could ram rookies or players (who dont report) for a very long time without getting a warning or ban.And finally when some1 reports me i would get only a warn?This is not a nascar server,who ever rams people on purpose is missed the point of this server so he should get a ban quick.There are so many DM servers,why must they ram people on CVT?Btw i agree with Thomas

[zacco]

Like i did say

ok so if i get you  right Tomas and nagy you both want to have a harder system for ramming, insulting and so on.

no warn only ban did i understand you correct .


but we going to take this with us and see what we can do to get harder on the warn or ban.

zacco

[ThomasKirkman]

Yes Zacco.  It is my opinion that if clear evidence is shown of someone intentionally ramming another player, first offense should be a one or three day ban, and get progressively longer if it continues.  BUT, I would like to hear other players put in their two cents on this also.

ThomasKirkman

[Konali]

I think warnings should be skipped for intentional ramming, also with players that collect them as awards. Because imo if you have 15+ warns in ur CT career u clearly show u dont give a fuck about the rules. So i think in most cases based on player history warns could be skipped.

Konali

[$nake]

I think warnings should be skipped for intentional ramming, also with players that collect them as awards. Because imo if you have 15+ warns in ur CT career u clearly show u dont give a fuck about the rules. So i think in most cases based on player history warns could be skipped.

Konali

thats why our cool admins are banning guys who have broken this same rule AGAIN AGAIN..
*cough* strato *cough* instead of warning them, when warns wont work at their minds positively..

[Nagy_Sanyi]

Because imo if you have 15+ warns in ur CT career u clearly show u dont give a fuck about the rules

Konali

*Cough* Anri *Cough*

[Axi.]

Because imo if you have 15+ warns in ur CT career u clearly show u dont give a fuck about the rules

Konali

*Cough* Anri *Cough*

LOL

[Master Hammy]

I think mick should establish a code of discipline that staff have to follow.

[Ethan]

I think mick should establish a code of discipline that staff have to follow.

each person sees everything different and would react differently so I dont think that would be nessacary